Raids, conduct and responsability

[Silverscalp]

Sooooo. I have this on my mind and im gonna say it out loud no matter the consecuence. My hope is that it serves as constructive criticism and that in the end we all take something good out of it. I beleive its an issue that must be adrresed and should be of concern if we want to continue as the awesome group i have apreciated and valued since my recruitment in Gods. As i've always said raid nights for me are fun nights. I have a very stressful and tiring job and there are many other ways to enjoy life, but, I've always looked forward to raiding. However, lately raids have been sour and distasteful.Thou we all make jokes and have a laugh @ eachother there is always a fine line between that and disrespect. We have a lot of people that are currently recruits or applying to the guild and we are not showing our best face. And no, it has nothing to do with our wipes. So i say this to the officers and members ... BE THE ADULTS I KNOW U ARE! Progression in itself is disliked and stressfull for many reasons but it doesnt give anyone the right to call me or anybody else a retard, a sucker, a fucker, shitheads, etc, etc, etc. All of us, yes including me, have made mistakes at some point. So either deal with our current short of members situation or enjoy what u have, which by the way is much better than many others can say. Begars cant be choosers i guess, Renez. And, I am really really sorry that its had to come to this... but to you or to anybody else that feels you are a better person (raider) or have had the achievement of your life, or that your ideas are better, simply for the fact that you killed Lich King in a 10/25 man raid i say, kiss my puertorrican ass. There is honestly no need for bragging or in your face call outs. Myself and others are aware of the quality of know how's you posses. Adress someone else for a Congratulations! poster. The true reason for which other guilds have completed this before us is not only (Yes Sid!!!) because they have watched the strat on youtube/tankspot/etc, but because they have been able to correct their errors with the seriousness and respect we all deserve, ignoring each specific IQ, bachelor's degrees, doctor's, statistics, etc in WOW their members have, BECAUSE WITHOUT A TEAM AND GOOD COMMUNICATION 10/25 man raids are simply not worth doing. This fight specifically has various strategies, and in my opinion we need to make our own. I know we have more talent than what we need towards this end and I encourage all to work and take responsability because at the end we all pay to play and we want to meet pve goals. So if after this you wish for me to step down and either leave the guild or not raid I will respect your wishes. I only request you ask politely. Because after saying this I will not tolerate some things and/or aggresive attitudes towards me or friends. xxxooo, Loraine.

[Fiddlesticks]

I think what you had to say is a very good example of constructive criticism, especially one that directs the guild as a whole. I do agree many of us have been getting sloppy with raids as of late, and we are in fact not showing the better face of what Gods is about. It's understandable towards the end of an expansion; people will stop taking raiding seriously and their performance will become poor. We do have many new faces who've recently joined, and hopefully more in the future, and it wouldn't hurt to clean up our acts and, as Silver said, act like the adults we are. If we want people to stick around for future raids and expansions, we need to give them a reason to.

Some of the conversations that take place between gchat, raid chat and Vent do need to be toned down and kept more mature. While it is nice to keep a light and fun atmosphere while raiding, it's distracting people from doing what we're there for, and at times inappropriate or over the top. Also, yes, the demoralizing of other members needs to be toned down as well. Not everyone learns at the same pace and some encounters are more difficult for others than they are for ourselves. We all make mistakes. The issues should be addressed in ways other than insulting and have the problem corrected constructively.

We can still enjoy ourselves and progress, but we do need to maintain some raid etiquette and discipline. Things need to be taken seriously, but no so much as to begrudge people into not wanting to participate.

[Lohkay]

I've spoken to the offending people yesterday and they accepted to tone it down. We all need to remember that this is an online game where people meet virtually and some people feel empowered by this anonymity. Its just in their nature to abuse this fact. On the other hand, some people are just way too sentimental about what is being said in vent/chat. Its beyond me why some people get so aggitated about a line of text from someone across the continent they never met in real life. So in all fairness, I think both sides need to drink their cup of tea. Relax and enjoy what you're here for. If you're only in the guild for the chat/dialogs, then I'm terribly sorry but you can probably find better somewhere else (think real life).

Now if this thread was directed at an officer which I think should have a cleaner act than anyone else, please let us know.

[Ipa]

To those providing too much criticism:

Criticism definitely has its place in raiding, just have to be mindful of those who are more easily offended.

To those who feel they're being unfairly criticized:

If you're being criticized, it's probably because you did something wrong (i.e. didnt watch fight, wrong spec, caused a wipe) = TIME WASTED. We have only 8 hrs of raiding per week, those 8 hrs are action-packed because we have alot to cover. I personally don't like to give people grief, but everytime you cause us to wipe or delay, its "real life" time you just wasted because you couldnt be mindful enough to get your act straight.

Yes, I know the criticism last night was definitely over-the-top, but those are very few and far in between.

P.S. Trust me, i have a tendency to suck at this game, and sometimes the only way to get better is knowing that you still have room to improve.

[Ren]

I know I was fuming last night. I was so pissed off because I tried to explain to someone about this thing that this person had to do and I get a smartass remark from them and one of their friends. I do not appreciate that in the least bit. No I do not brag. Never have, never will. I was trying to offer constructive criticism but this person could not take it and just had excuses, which set me off. I'm sorry I know I was a total bitch last night. And I know that I can take constructive criticism and tone it down a bit and correct my flaws.

People need to be ready for fights that we've been attempting for weeks. Collectively our GS are a lot higher than some other people that have gotten LK down. It's dumbfounding... excuse my patience wearing thin.

[Ren]

To those of you who have a problem dealing with people in RL and have to lash out at others on the internet on a regular basis because you have a huge fucking problem with yourself: get a grip, get laid, or do something. Stop driving people away with your pedophilia and gay comments and ludicrous accusations of people being sluts.

[Lohkay]

I know I was fuming last night. I was so pissed off because I tried to explain to someone about this thing that this person had to do and I get a smartass remark from them and one of their friends. I do not appreciate that in the least bit. No I do not brag. Never have, never will. I was trying to offer constructive criticism but this person could not take it and just had excuses, which set me off. I'm sorry I know I was a total bitch last night. And I know that I can take constructive criticism and tone it down a bit and correct my flaws.

People need to be ready for fights that we've been attempting for weeks. Collectively our GS are a lot higher than some other people that have gotten LK down. It's dumbfounding... excuse my patience wearing thin.

That is enough Ren, I thought we were pretty clear last night, it appears we weren't. It is NOT your role to give critism to ANYONE. To be honest you are both good players and you BOTH made mistakes yesterday so why is it that you think someone deserves critism from you when they failed only once and was already told from the raid leader to correct their mistake. We are ALL tired of being stuck on the same progression, even so more than you since most of us didn't take a "break". So if this isn't clear enough now, let me know, I'll make sure to make it crystal clear.

As for your second comment, I'm sure kak only lashed out because of the misplaced "critism" you gave. I'm not saying he was right to do so and I talked to him about it so it doesn't happen again.

[Ren]

He calls me a slut pretty frequently after I say something, unprovoked or not.

[Kak]

For gods' sakes, say my name. It's not like you're looking in the mirror and saying "Biggie Smalls" three times. But honestly, I don't know why you people tolerate me. And everytime you let me get away with it, I feel a bit more empowered. In fact, I've been looking through my index for about 20 mins now trying to decide the best picture to post to turn a few more heads away from me. But let me make myself a tad clear as of my motives: I don't go unprovoked.

I realize that may seem off balance, but I promise you it's true. Let us take, for example, my first victim: Snowchain. Pissy little teenager who thinks he's better than everyone and won't hear a word against him cause he "earned" his "respect" when he tanked for the guild over the summer a couple years ago. He had to be right about everything, menial and major. I was asked, actually, to "break him." I didn't have a problem with him. I didn't know him. I didn't care. Not until I saw his arrogance first-hand. For those fo you who ever saw the drama between us, keep in mind there was never a moment he didn't speak first, whether I was jumping in for someone's defense or not. And don't think I was alone in such sentiments by the time he left the guild. I was just the one to speak out first because, frankly, I don't care.

There are more examples, of course. Such as Durzza, pretending he's necessary and useful being here for "99% of the raids" and asking for a break every hour on the hour. I used to have a problem with Selentha when he first joined cause he sounded like such an elitist. Not that there's anything wrong with being good, I just remember specifically one mage applicant he commented on asking which shield he usually buffed with just because of a few gemming errors (the obvious answer for anyone who's tinkered with a mage is Molten Shield, the only one that gives you benefits torwards damage). Not that I don't like Selentha, he's a great guy. In fact, believe it or not, I don't have a problem with any of my targets. Speaking of elitists, you can imagine, now, why I focus a lot on Chev. Great guy, keep in mind, great player. I wish I had 24 more like him. That's right, Chev, I'm complimenting you. Why? Because I don't have a problem with you...except when you're issuing other's statements as outright wrong. Why? Because I'd prefer 24 people who can see others views and (as this thread is based on this topic) constructlively criticize as opposed to 24 elitists. Perhaps that's not your angle and perhaps you just don't present your discussion as well as intended. I'd like to believe that as you're becomming more and more lovable over time.

I could go on with a couple more names and another paragraph, but I think I've gotten my point across as to my motives: I don't go unprovoked. I could discuss personal reasons why but that has no place here.

Ren. You were out of line. I was moreso. (again, I don't know why you people tolerate me and everytime you let me get away with it I feel a bit more empowered.) I won't apoligize for it. You people let me not. I enjoy conversations with you in guild chat and think you're a funny person most times, despite how deviant some times can get. In fact, Fiddle once even said "I have to hand it to Ren, she sometimes keeps guildchat rather interesting." We even share sentiments; "It's dumbdounding... excuse my patience wearing thin." I honestly believe I should have Shadowmourne already and should be sporting the tabard off Lich King afterwards. Look at that! We have something in common! But to the point: I use my "pedophilia and gay comments and ludicrous accusations" because they get to people. Ludicrous or not. Tell me what I said didn't jump out to you. Tell me you didn't feel like a bitch and victim all at once. I won't pretend my methods are justified here, because once again, I was moreso out of line than you. But I got my point across.

Looking at your post now, "but this person could not take it and just had excuses," Fiddle didn't realize there was a cast time on Defile. It took me a minute to understand "you have to move before he casts it" as well. At least I think that was Fiddle's problem. The concept that was going through my mind from your description on what to do was "Cooldown on Defile about to end according to DBM...so figure out who it targets before the RGN decides?" Simple misunderstanding if I'm not mistaken. I could also be quoting vent wrong, I'm more of a visual and kenetic learner as opposed to hearing. (for comedic pause) In all honesty, I've never heard a word Sid has said while describing a fight. Not one. But back on topic, we understand the point you were making now. Or, at least, I do. I won't comment for other people's unspoken thoughts.

And now to defend my own honor, "and I get a smartass remark from them and one of their friends." I don't have any friends. The only friends I had on this game quit a little while back and one of them, in fact, left my house a couple hours before this post.

And since I've decided I can't post without a picture I think I have taken the time to find one appropriate.

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[Fiddlesticks]

Looking at your post now, "but this person could not take it and just had excuses," Fiddle didn't realize there was a cast time on Defile. It took me a minute to understand "you have to move before he casts it" as well. At least I think that was Fiddle's problem. The concept that was going through my mind from your description on what to do was "Cooldown on Defile about to end according to DBM...so figure out who it targets before the RGN decides?" Simple misunderstanding if I'm not mistaken.

Kák summed up the issue. I didn't understand what was meant by "you have to move before he casts it", hence why I asked. It wasn't me mocking the way you phrased it, I just honestly had no idea what you meant. Sid asked why I stood there, I said I was healing. I wasn't aware I had to move after the Val'kyr came out since we never really got to that point previously in the encounters between 10 or 25man. That's why I also asked you to calm down when you went off on me. It was a mistake on my part for not knowing that mechanic, but it was also unnecessary for you to jump the gun and assume I was making excuses or mocking you.

I don't want to continue to drag out that issue from that night, so moving on more to my response based from Kák's post..

This isn't directed at you, please note, this goes for everyone. Many people need to reeducate themselves on our guild policy page.

Attitude & Behavior: We expect every member to show respect and consideration for their fellow guildies. A positive, constructive attitude is highly desired and will be rewarded accordingly. A destructive or negative attitude can result in penalization, or in extreme cases, removal from the guild. We require members to speak respectfully, and thus prohibit foul language and perversion in guild chat. Also, please do not link to perverse materiel (<-- that's spelled wrong, by the way) in guild chat or on our forums. When in doubt, don't mention it in guild chat. If any guild member has a disagreement with any other guild member, regardless of rank, please attempt to solve it through tells.

This includes a large lump of our guildmates, officers included, who find it appropriate to refer to people as "fucking morons", "sluts", calling applicants/pugs "stupid/idiot", and the other colourful assortment of names that are thrown around. It also gets extremely tiring to hear, and I'm not alone in the matter of wanting to see it discontinue. If you have an issue with another person in the raid, be it with an applicant or another guild member, address the issue with them privately instead of making it a public scene, or discuss it with an authoritative figure and they can assist in handling the problem.

Remember, we all individually represent the guild. People will remember the individuals who stand out, be it because they enjoyed running with them, or because they they found the people to be distasteful, and thus tend to judge the guild as a whole. There's been many applicants who've turned down the idea of joining Gods because of inappropriate comments passed, and there's several members who've stopped raiding or have left because they're sick of it.

[Lohkay]

Awww you guys actually talking about your issues makes me all warm and fuzzy...

radiatorkitty.jpg (43.29 KiB) Viewed 85 times

Oh shit wait...

[xavier10101]

Hey guys sorry for lurking like the creeper I am when i currently can't play (give me another week, ill be back)

Anyway, kak's comment brought me out, and I gotta say. Man, I apologize. I used to think that you were an insufferable excuse for a human being. Now I think you are a genious. Still an outright troll. But a genious nonetheless. I have not heard anything that made more sense in the entirety of everything WOW related. That's not saying much. But still. Kudos.

Silver: Thanks for bringing the issue up. I totally agree on most parts.
Ren: You were just trying to help, but were frusterated. Trust me, i'm as frusterated as you every raid in WOW. Its the penalty for joining a guild that lets you, say, not raid for two weeks, and still keep you. Don't do what I do. Be nice. lol.
Lohkay, Sid, Lucas: I feel the Officers as late have set some horrible examples and added to this general feeling. If you want to hear my specific perceptions let me know.
Kak: You take it way too far man. I see what you are trying to do, but honestly. It goes way too far sometimes. You know it. You enjoy it. That doesn't make it right.
Chev: Dude, you weren't even there, you have no clue what happened, stop posting things as if you did.

Overall, the guild has issues. I'll probably make a post on them so we can start working through a few. Either way, we can get through them, nothing is guildbreaking, its rough holding a guild together in the lapse before an expansion is supposed to come out. Worst comes to worst, 10m raids = 25m raids in cata!?!?!?!


Edit: Sidenote, "constructive criticism" is everyone's responsibility. To do it, and (looks in mirror) not to do it. Like most things in life, there is a best way to do something, many "almost as good" ways of doing something, and many many many "bad" ways of doing something. In this guild, "almost as good" is good enough. I only really have a problem (and often try to correct it in a poor, condescending way), as Ipa said, with people who continue to do things their own "bad" way without attempting to improve.

[Sidius]

I have said many times I welcome feedback so please post examples of where you think myself and the rest off the officers can improve.